Climate Change A Global Issue, But Developing Nations Doing More Than Developed Ones

all right I think this is probably one of the most important conversations that I feel um are integral when you talk about uh what will be the shape and future of a new world order because at the end of the day it's the challenges that need to be answered and climate challenges I think one can safely say is one that knows No Boundaries it most certainly doesn't go according to gdps and developed and developing status it impacts every country and which is why you need CH answers together and I'm hopeful that we'll find some of those today in this August panel a quick introduction is in order we'll get Eric solim as well he's the former minister of climate and environment of Norway he's joining us from Oslo uh Excellency Lindy Cameron is here she's uh British High Commissioner to India harit Singh Global engagement director fossil fuel non prif foration treaty initiative and we have Mr shishir priad dasi who's the president of the Clinton chinon Research Foundation thank you so much all of you for taking out the time and Eric is also with us uh here uh let me start by asking one thing which I think would also set the context of why this conversation is so important which is the fact that um the speed with which we are seeing climate catastrophes happening around the world uh their recurence is now um is is happening at an alarming Pace um developed countries are facing um extreme challenges but that also gives an idea about the fact that if uh the largest countries are struggling then the extent of impact for developing and poor countries is I think frankly unimaginable because they don't have the framework the solutions and response as well so that's one question I feel that all of you should answer in terms of when you talk about climate catastrophes uh their impact their speed how does that uh play into the urgency with which governments need to find a solution ma'am let's start with you thank you I think you're absolutely right I think the lived experience of climate emergencies helps people to understand why their governments need to take policy action now and you nowhere is that more evident actually than here in India you know seeing the floods the the landslides in in Kola and in Aisha so I think it it is really helpful in driving that sense of urgency and we know that matter is not just in in helping to build the global consensus for policy change but also in helping people to invest in what they need for resilience so we've been really proud for example to be a Founder member along with India um of cdri the Coalition for disaster resilient infrastructure you which is helping to ensure that best practice from India is actually delivered in the global Sou to ensure that infrastructure is built in a resilient way and we know that we know that is really good value for money we know that every dollar invested in resilient infrastructure you know pays off four times over so it is important and it is really urgent we're also really proud of what the UK government is doing I mean my new government takes climate change incredibly seriously um it was one of the first speeches that our new foreign secretary gave highlighting the importance and the urgency of the climate and nature crisis and we were really proud for example that we've literally just closed the last UK Coal Fire parate on our journey to to uh carbon free electricity by 2030 okay all right sir you want to respond and then I get it Mr P as well yeah I totally agree uh with um The High Commissioner uh that this series of disasters that we have seen uh which are not only affecting developing countries but also developed countries are serving as a wakeup call and many countries are stepping up uh but I also see a risk and I must highlight here uh that as rich countries are going get more and more affected by climate change which they did not imagine just a couple of years ago they were thinking that only developing count something that only happens to other parts of the world it a happening here and most vulnerable countries who are going to be struggling uh with impacts uh who also have very less capacity to deal with it uh they did not really uh invested enough domestically uh in preparing for resilience we have seen in Germany we have seen in the UK in the US so now the challenge is going to be and that's the risk that they're going to start looking a lot more inwards which means they are going to be far more cautious about the resources that they invest in the international cooperation they're going to start using it internally and that challenge remains so on one hand it serves as a wakeup call but on the other hand it may impact the flow of Finance to developing countries I hate to give a comparison to that it's reminding me of the covid vaccines unfortunately that you know you start looking more inwards than if you know ensuring that some of the other uh most affected Parts also are brought into the amb of uh protection Mr Pria thank you uh and a very good morning to everyone uh look while it's true that the kind of uh uh you know disasters we are seeing are spread all over the world but I think we shouldn't shy away from saying that it's impacting far more those who were historically much less responsible for the State of Affairs that we are in today you know we we try and talk that it's fairly uniform across the globe it's definitely not not sure in terms of natural disasters it may be but if you look at the kind of migrations that are happening within countries because of the extreme heat that is being generated it's much more in the most vulnerable and developing countries that's one but the second Point again it's it's like it's like a point of caution that while the narrative must be on sustainability for a lot of developing countries and I think India included very strongly in that that narrative should actually become a three-prong narrative we fight on sustainability but we don't at all lose our emphasis on economic growth and energy security for a country like India we've got to ensure that every single Nook and corner of this country has reliable and affordable I think the key word is Affordable energy we must also not forget the fact that India is aiming to be a developed country at 2047 all three must go hand in hand indeed and and that's a question I'm going to come to in a bit after giving Eric Johns to come up with opening comments which is about the trust deficit and also the fact that you can't have the same Finishing Line If you don't have the same starting point and I think that's the fundamental point in terms of the trust deficit that exists on issue related to climate But Eric come in there on the fact that uh uh will these unfortunate incidents that are happening very regularly become a catalyst towards a more concerted action towards these climate challenges I agree to what everyone else in the panel said about the seriousness of the climate crisis and I also for sure agree that not we should not blame India or or the developing world look us emissions up to today per capita are 25 times Indian so no one should blame India but the game changer is not this the game changer is something fundamentally different and that is for the the first time in human history it's possible to see environment action and climate action as an opportunity not just a problem climate change is a huge problem but it's also an enormous opportunity and let me give you one example and the Indian state of good out has now set the target to 100 gwatt of renewable energy by 2030 and in the combination of the good leadership from prime minister mod at the center the leadership from the state of fut of and engagement of AD and Reliance and all big industrialist I'm pretty confident that we'll reach these go and look it's enormous that is for instance 20 times the entire energy grid of Nigeria which is the biggest nation in Africa H if guat reaches this aim it will put guat only the state of G not India but state of good would then be the eighth biggest Nation in the world when it comes to Renewables so this is big big big and it's an opportunity for prosperity for jobs for income for driving the state towards towards development so G is not seeing climate change just as a problem but as an enormous opportunity and the same spirit is there with prime minister Mi and is there in many other states of India like tamad or with the new leadership of Andra Pradesh and can mention a lot more and the old days where the discussion was do we want to take care of Mother Earth or do we want to develop that's gone now we can develop and take care of Mother Earth by seeing it all as an opportunity all right uh you want to respond you want to come in there in terms of what he's saying okay uh then then let me come to the other bit which I think is fundamental to being able to solve the climate uh puzzle so to say which is which is around the trust deficit where I say that uh developing countries say historical polluters uh now want everybody to have the same Finishing Line when we didn't start at the same time we can't be paying for sins of uh developed countries that's essentially the Crux of the argument and that's where it boils down to uh ma'am I want you to respond to how do you bridge that trust deficit before making any meaningful progress so I think you've got a real Point our foreign secretary said in his speech that he had heard that develop devel countries didn't believe the system worked for them um and it's really important we recognize that but it's also important to recognize we all live in the same Planet so ultimately we do all live in the same world and it's therefore important that both countries like the UK commit to the ambitious goals we've committed to for example you know Net Zero by 2050 you decarbonized electricity by 2030 you it's incredibly important we do that you know to address our responsibilities it's also important that we ensure the scale of climate Finance is available to help India and other countries grow grow at the pace they want to create that lowcost you know low carbon electricity that allows for the incredible ambition India has you in a in a way that doesn't increase the the risks for the planet and I think that potential is there there's a lot we can do as governments we're committed to MDB reform for example to making sure there is more affordable Finance we're also committed to making sure that the city of London as a center for Global Finance helps to unlock the potential of the private sector for this and indeed we're working here in India on you know technology and research to ensure that supporting those incredibly ambitious goals I really do think after 6 months in India that you know India is the place where this is going to happen it is the country that matters most for the future of the planet and for climate change because India's ambition for development should not in any way be constrained by the responsibilities of the planet indeed um I I want to take both of you your opinion on on what uh mam said on what ma'am said in terms of uh the fact that developing countries need to uh find that fine balance in terms of funds and also shouldering some of the responsibility how far back can you go in time when you need to look forward in terms of the climate challenges and also how do you find those Innovative new green funding models that work both for investors and for governments so uh I'm I'm really glad that the High Commissioner uh talked about both developed countries taking a lot more action back home and also finance and um and we really welcome the new government as climate activists because we have been missing uh the role of uh the UK over the last 10 years or so we've seen a lot of backtracking and and you know the trust deficit is because of a reason uh when we see as as India and other developing countries facing tremendous pressure to move away from fossil fuels and we must but the reality is when you have millions who don't have access to energy you need that support whereas developed countries is continuing to expand fossil fuels Eric is here from Norway and I must mention here when you look at the global fossil fuel expansion Australia Canada Norway UK and the US put together are responsible for more than 50% of fossil fuel expansion between now and 2050 that's where the trust deficit come from and they open some of these plants in the last couple of years as well exactly when they face pressure so I agree that the trust deficit is real and then you don't even deliver on finance so of course there's a change in the government and now uh in the UK they've decided not to issue any new licenses but hundreds of licenses being uh you know allowed over the last few years is going to cause damage uh for the next uh you know several decades I would say if you really look at the emissions uh coming from that extraction so trust deficit is an absolutely real issue because rich countries have not uh acted based on their historical responsibility and fair share while they are continuing to put put pressure on developing countries to do more without even providing finance and technology so we need to solve that puzzle uh of really seeing that leadership real leadership coming from developed countries based on their uh historical obligations and supporting developing countries to do more indeed Mr let me also ask you about the fact that uh a lot of a lot of your experience at the WTO uh where some of these negotiations took place a couple of decades back it was the same convers ation the context may be different which was more trade and less climate but the but the conversation was the same which is around uh you don't know the starting point but the Finishing Line has to be the same for all nations put together talk to us about that experience in terms of being able to bridge some of this trust deficit because at the end of the day it's about negotiations and and breaking that uh deadlock thank you gory look uh this is not the first time a globally issue is being discussed multilaterally and I think the way the trade agenda was set in the 1990s has perhaps a lot of uh uh a lot of lessons for us in the way we set the climate agenda you know one of the biggest reasons that the trade agenda and by the setting up of the WTO in 1995 led to a huge trade deficit was for two reasons one is because developing countries and mass were promised huge amount of gains if they simply opened up their markets this was the by line lower your tariffs and you know Heavens are going to open up but the second was very often and this happened for the first 10 years in WTO others kept telling you what you need to do we know what's best for you you follow this path and I think that resulted in a huge deficit of trust and I think that is something we must avoid when we are setting the climate agenda let me just quote two things one let me quote what David Cameron said yesterday he said very clearly two wrongs don't make a right I totally agree but that is subject to a wrong being done by me and a wrong being done by you what about two wrongs being done by the same side and that is something I think we absolutely need to avoid when we setting the climate agenda and trust me the developing countries are doing far more I India India is committed to $2.5 trillion of investment between 2015 and 20130 that's huge it probably was you know absolutely Unthinkable many years ago but yes we do need to be met halfway and the reason G is and I probably would often would give this example in WTO and you know with the permission give it here we are prepared to drive down the highway towards zero emission absolutely with you but we have going to do it at our speed you do not tell us the speed at which we drive down that Highway and you don't tell us these are your restricted number of pit stops that you can do we will get there exactly the starting point is there and the goal we will reach but yes give us the flexibility because of very very different conditions and support but I'm certain if you look at the path in the last 15 years it's towards much more trust so I hope that that deficit will soon be a thing of the for gotten pass thank you great uh Eric let me also then uh ask you on this fact uh we mentioned about developed countries the fact that they're still looking at ways of revisiting some of the uh older mechanism in terms of fossil fuel for powering the energy needs at a time when there is global conversation around pressurizing or asking developing nations to do their bit coming on that we've mentioned some of those factors here I mean absolutely but the change on climate will not come from the multilateral system and as you said in your conversation with kishani earlier today the United Nation is so weak and basically nothing of substan is happening in the climate talks what will change is the action which particularly developing nations are taking for their own interest look China is now 60% of all green develop Vel Ms on planet Earth solar wind hydrop power electric cars electric batteries high speed rail Metro what every you can mention tree planting China is 60% of the global development One Nation alone move on to Indonesia Indonesia has brought deforestation down to zero in the second biggest rainforest nation in the world fantastic development and then which is the topic of today I listened to was in Amed Abad very recently with prime minister mod and listen to his speech he spoke for one hour he only spoke about the opportunities for India in the green transformation how India can capture jobs and prosperity by going green look if India replaces oil and gas with solar and wind the sun is Indian the wind is Indian well it saves money H it saves money which can be used for education andal and today solar and wind energy is cheaper than fossile fuels in the past of course if you wanted to go renewable it was a cost because coal was much cheaper but that was the past now sou is the cheapest energy you save money if you turn to to Renewables and that's why India and China and Indonesia and Brazil and so many other developing nations are now in the lead 10 years ago if anyone asked me where should you go to see climate action I would say please go to Brussels please go to Berlin and to Paris if you ask the same question today I would say please go to Beijing please go to Delhi and please go to Jakarta and by the way this is also why this agreement now between India and China is so important because these are the two drivers of climate action and environment actions in the world they can work more closely together trade and create jobs by Mutual investment that would be a major driver of the green transformation absolutely so when you're talking about climate action plan we are here in New Delhi and that that could be the starter then uh the question that comes is that is global South essentially going to provide those Solutions Eric mentioned solar uh and that is not just the cheapest safest uh and and most easily replicable model of being able to provide Basic Energy needs the larger question is is global South essentially going to lead the way for finding climate Solutions is is is that now going to be uh the fact that has to drive Global negotiations there's cop around the corner that's going to happen next month in Baku uh is it time to let Global South do that bit now so I have to say I think India is going to lead the world in this um I think India has the scale The Innovation the technology uh but also in the need you know that aspiration to get to developed India by 2047 requires that real level of ambition to to to match that pace and scale but also India has the ability then to create a generation of lowcost technology which actually very few other countries um have got the ability to do and then to export that technology for the benefit of of countries in the global South so I am looking forward to Decades of Indian leadership in this space which I think is incredibly exciting and something we're really proud to be working on we're proud to be a um a founder remember again of the international solar Alliance which I think is a fantastic opportunity to drive the ability to take solar to scale at low cost in a way that has massive opportunity for other countries and I think part of it is just it's a different challenge decarbonizing your economy is one thing but actually working out how you get lowcost um low carbon growth is a different and in many ways more exciting opportunity so I think there is there's an opportunity there not just for governments but also for the private sector this is an area where I expect to see not only private flows but also frankly private profits as a result of that's a really good thing in fact and that brings me to the part which is around technology uh I I don't consider myself to be someone who understands Cutting Edge technology but from a Layman point of view and I speak for most people here in the audience barring my boss of course which is that uh technology could find solutions that uh that could really break this puzzle about climate funding because you know uh if you look at the numbers in terms of funding last year's climate Finance uh the number was about 100 billion about1 110 billion dollar uh hurricane Helen alone the damage is 160 billion so you cannot solve this by just garnering more funding it's not going to come technology needs to find those solutions for us how do you go about addressing that and and how do you break that uh aspect yeah so before I come to that I very briefly let me add to what the High Commissioner said totally uh developing countries as you asked um provide huge opportunities also because a lot of infrastructure is yet to be built and we don't need to repeat the same mistakes that developed countries have so we can make sure that all our sectors are decarbonized uh in a manner that we don't really create the same system uh that got created in the last 150 years now and again as you said the role of finance and technology is going to be extremely important but when we talk about technology I would argue that most of the technology is already there when we talk about solar and wind and that's what Eric was also underlining so we don't have to invest a lot in now finding new technologies yes in certain cases like steel industry and cement and aluminium hyren that's where it's a at a nent stage we and battery storage there are areas where we have to invest but I think we can massively scale up the current technology so I would argue that we need more Finance right now for the existing technology and and also ensure that those that production is happening locally and that's where the role of wtu and trade comes in that should not become a barrier why only India and China who should lead I would say production should happen in kenas and malais and Nepal of the world as well if we we need to look at climate emergency as an emergency it's a crisis right we should not just look at making money know there are other sectors where we can make money we should make climate technology as a public good if we really want to deal with the existential crisis that we are facing right now so I think technology is still becoming a barrier even with the ones that we have really cracked the code of particularly solar wind and and even battery storage Mr Pradesh you want to come in on that in terms of both the technology aspect and the fact that some of what we already have uh can be replicated with India leading the way uh look I I think India is already showing the way and again it's not because the three of us sitting on the panel are saying so look at the figures look what India has done in the last 10 years and you also asked about what the global South is doing you know India added about 200 gwatt of additional capacity in the last 10 years out of which more than 150 that's 75% of the additional capacity came from Renewables so we added about 175 gwatt of additional renewable capacity and this we did because yes continuously technology more adaptive more reasonable more more replicable is coming in but still somewhere G and perhaps you know depending on time available have to quot that we also need to change the global narrative about what the global South is doing you know irrespective what uh what India has done and I I with your permission and that's why I'm delighted that NDTV is now also doing an you know a global Channel because we need to get the story out I'll just quote two headlines one most recent you know the was published by the telegraph 2024 which is this year it says International leaders Express dissatisfaction with India's voting patterns concerning climate initiatives now for me that's terrible look look what we are doing and yet what what is being highlighted is our voting patterns and if you look at a NGO report of just a year back it says an NGO published finding criticized the gap between India's Environmental prise and its action in transitioning to Green resources come on you got to give me a break the adani group Itself by 2030 would have contributed 50 gwatt to Green energy I mean India's taken actually Quantum steps but yes we really need to highlight that we need ambassadors like Eric there we need the high Commissioners there we need activist here but we need most importantly Global Channel global news channels like NDTV pushing the story thanks yes indeed sir and uh let me Eric then come in there that uh at the end of the day it also comes down to the global narrative uh as as as Mr PRI also pointed out that uh developing countries countries like you know India at the Forefront of being able to deal the the the issues apart from the challenges that they are dealing with around growth around funding still they are at the Forefront of being able to at least address those despite that look at the narrative that is shaping it how do we go about fixing that sh is of course absolutely right I mean the arrogance of the vest is unbelievable unbelievable arrogance where people believe that Europe is leading or America is leading when India is far ahead I mean look there is a poster by ad there just at K in the in garat the Adon group will now establish the largest combined solar and Wind Facility in the entire world is 30 Gatt is as much as all hydr power in my nation Norway combin and we have 100% fuel by hydrop power atares in Mad Pradesh we have the largest floating solar anywhere in the world the state of Tana has increased Tre cover by 7% and I can go on and go on simply but this India story is not told at least not to extent where people really understand it in or grasp it in the United States and Europe so together this panel and andv and others let's tell the India story more and better so that people in the West can get out of this absolutely horrendous arrogance all right we have to leave it there thank you so much all of you for taking out the time and joining a conversation which I think matters to the present and the future Generations uh something that I'm hopeful of we'll be able to find solutions to and at least get that on that road map which is most needed the solutions are what we need issues we know challenges we know I think it's about finding those next steps and Global Leadership which is what the whole point is thank you so much all of you and thank you to the audience [Applause] [Music] let's get [Music]